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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 20:14 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
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Genocides have been usual in this particular corner of the world, as they unfortunately still are in many other regions of our planet. I had the terrible experience of travelling several of them.

I agree with piper that we have to stop people killing others - if necessary also by entering such countries with armed troups. But: I don't agree with the dumb way our administration explained the urgency to do so to America and the rest of the world. They did not talk about genozide, they talked about those weapons of mass destruction (which have been there always, which have been used already years before against minorities inside Iraq). They did not talk about the dictator killing people on a daily base - they told us we Americans could be killed by that regime (which was simply almost impossible at this time). So, they intended to do good (mostly), but communicated it very badly. The effect of this inability to communicate was a deep wound into the credibility and sympathy for the United States world-wide. Our president added to that personally by making himself the biggest fool of the world several times, and that way seriously damaged the reputation of our nation, and of every US citizen.

I did not like the way the US-press treated the Iraq problem, either. This opened doors for the European press to re-animate a stupid anti-Americanism. I'm busy fighting every day this trend in Europe wherever I get the opportunity to speak. But that's not easy, trust gets lost fast, but needs a lot of time to grow again.

US troops did a very good job in Haiti recently freeing a suffering population from a dangerous dictator and murder. It took months for the UN Security Council to recognize the problem and send additional powers. When they finally arrived, the most important part was done already - without much damage. But again our administration failed to communicate what happend: They could have used this glorious story to proof to the world (and sceptics inside the US) that they actually do the right thing. They failed. The story almost got lost entirely.

That's why I count the days this administration stays in power.

Greetings,
Chris

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michael7
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 20:16 Uhr



Anmeldung: 24. Mai 2005
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I am one of the 51,003,926 people who voted for Al Gore in 2000 and one of the 59,028,111 people who voted John Kerry in 2004. I agree with very few things that the Bush Administration has done. (Please don't peg me as a yellow-dog Democrat, however, because I'm not. I voted for Ronald Reagan the second time and George H.W. Bush the first time.)

As a lawyer and former judge, I am fearful for the rights and liberties of all Americans. There are people within the right wing of the Republican Party who are simply scary and W has acted on their advice much too often. They have used the terrorist attack of 9/11 as justification for everything on their agenda and as a result, we find ourselves close to living in a police state. I was heartened and frankly surprised by the recent Supreme Court decision about the Gitmo detainees. If that decision had gone the other way, there are factions within the Republican Party who would have advocated rounding up their political opponents and locking them away in secret prisons.

For those of you who scoff, think about Jose Padilla, an American citizen who was arrested in Chicago and locked away in a military brig in South Carolina for years without any due process. The Bush Administration held him on a naked allegation that he was involved in a conspiracy to detonate a "dirty bomb". Padilla may be one of the worst human beings on the face of the planet, but that's not the point. They presented no proof to anyone and held him for years without charging him with any crime. And let me repeat, this is an American citizen arrested on American soil.

In this country, there are many fine people who are Republicans and there are many fine people who are Democrats. The policies of the Bush Administration, however, have deeply divided and polarized this nation.

Edit: And what all of this has to do with the title of the thread about the Microsoft fine, I have no idea.

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JimC
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 21:07 Uhr



Anmeldung: 16. Mar 2005
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Politics and Technical Forums usually don't mix well -- -especially in forums with international memberships. It usually degrades into people taking sides, with a lot of "hard" feelings.

As a moderator on a Digital Camera Forum, I put a stop to any political discussions immediately, even if I agree with what is being posted.

But, I'll admit that a forum specific to Linux is different, as politics have such a big impact on what happens in the computer indsutry, that it's difficult to avoid getting into these kinds of dicussions, and they may even be useful.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 21:23 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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Piper: There's opinion, and there's fact.

You're welcome to your opinions. You want to think all Democrats are cowards, and publicly call them names, that's your problem.

But as far as your facts go, you're 99% full of shit. You might want to check into the reality of what you said. If you care about reality, that is.

And that's all I have to say to you about your post.
 
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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 21:33 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Mai 2005
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Piper,

Firstly lets not take anything from the guys out in Iraq, and that is not only Americans, they have balls bigger than I will ever have but since you seem to disagree with just about most other people what is exactly the reason for the war in Iraq, WMD, what threat would Iraq be to America, the answer, zero. With spies and satallite information the true situation was known before the war. Bush misjudged the situation completely he thought he would finish off Saddam quickly finishing off what his dad started, unfortunatly he is nothing like the politician his dad was. The gassing of the Kurds in the North was years before, did anyone come to their help then or the marsh arabs, there is only one reason for the war, to secure access to the second largest known oil reserves.

Ian
 
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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 01:50 Uhr



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titan hat folgendes geschrieben::
Piper,

The gassing of the Kurds in the North was years before, did anyone come to their help then or the marsh arabs, there is only one reason for the war, to secure access to the second largest known oil reserves.

Ian


Then why is gas prices higher than ever (and I am not talking about the exons of the world but the cost per barrell.)

If oil is our real goal then we would do more drilling in our own country and lessen our reliance to foreign oil.

If Sadam really had no weapons of mass destructions, he played really stupid games with the inspectors that would try to come to check on that.

If he was just bluffing and was really just planting roses and flowers it was a really stupid bluff.

When we left Iraq the first time without finishing the job, everyone complained about how we just left the Iraqies out to dry. Now that were back, we have the democrats trying to do the same thing. (And guess who they will blame when Iraq collapses.)

Piper had 1 fact wrong, the differences in lies between the two parties is more than 1 percent. Just look a the democrat platform. It pretty much says nothing.

Listen to them talk - depending on the crowd they will say completely oppsoing things.

If the Bush was really an evil liar who knew for a fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction, don't you think he - our someone in his admistration - would have been ready to plant them to back up his statements.

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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 02:10 Uhr



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Zitat:
The U.S. is the only country condemned by the World Court for international terrorism-for "the unlawful use of force" for political ends.

-Noam Chomsky

(I wonder how many Americans know this? Or what is was for?)


Zitat:
In much of the world the U.S. is regarded as a leading terrorist state.

-Noam Chomsky

(Again, many Americans don't seem to realize this.)
 
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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 03:13 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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michael7 has this exactly right, 100%. Including the note on drifting far off topic. Unfortunately, we're in a race against time here, percentage point after percentage point is figuring out that something is very wrong with the picture here, but the last holdouts will be the least likely to actually take note of what's really going on. This thrills countries like China to no end, they are moving very fast to take advantage of the disastrous mistakes this country is making. Meanwhile another major corporation defaults on its pension plan. You'd think at some point everyone would scratch their heads and starts asking what's wrong? Not yet I guess.

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stryder
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 03:57 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
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michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Edit: And what all of this has to do with the title of the thread about the Microsoft fine, I have no idea.

Well, to most of us Microsoft is the "evil empire". And from what I read here, the US (or should I say the present US regime) is also the evil empire in the eyes of many. Makes you think about a country that will bring the full weight of the law against a US president for sexual misconduct and lying about it, but not against one for crossing the limits of legality and human rights time and again. And what about bringing the country to war against another under false pretenses.

The objective of terrorists is to destablise the social fabric of society so that in the chaos that ensue their cause will be strengthened. That's why it doesn't matter who or what they target as long as the impact is felt. The best result is when the response further destablises the world. And this is what the US has done. And what Israel is now doing. I think this is why many are dead set against the war against Iraq. Is it for oil? Or is it for the need to respond against provocation. To do something. Anything.
 
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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 03:57 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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If you're interested in reading about the issue of civil liberties being whittled away, check out Glenn Greenwald's blog (and book). He used to be a lawyer, and is both rational and persuasive.

Another thing to recommend is this excellent article, "Freedom, as in fighting for," by a guy who leads a European organization that advocates for privacy rights. Good stuff.
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 05:23 Uhr
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Q: How did the US know that Iraq had WMD's ?

A: They kept the receipts

Lachen

Has the word hypocrisy been deleted from the US language?

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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 09:12 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Mai 2005
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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::


Then why is gas prices higher than ever

If oil is our real goal then we would do more drilling in our own country and lessen our reliance to foreign oil.

I.


Jackiebrown,

Have a look here it explains the reasons for both
geopubs.wr.usgs.gov/open-file/of00-320/of00-320.pdf

edit. the link doesn't seem to have a www but works if you paste into google ot toolbar.

Ian
 
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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 11:28 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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titan,

thx for that chart. Just know that it were tremendous years for the Austrian oilcompany OMV, and they bought e.g. into the Romanian market and got Ploesti as well (fiercly fought for in WW2).

Just the figures from 2004 to 2006:
Assets grew from 6 billion Euro to 15 billion Euro
Share-value grew from 10 Euro to 50 Euro (peak in March almost 60 Euro)

And I think OMV are a very, very small player in the world of oil.

hubi

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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 14:02 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
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hubi hat folgendes geschrieben::
Cathbard,

"they" are doing the same all over the place. Just goole for echelon, or recently was reveiled that "they" were surveilling the central swift-servers in Belgium, so "they" had an overview over more or less the worldwide money being transfered through that network for about five years.

hubi


Yes but they didn't monitor US citizens, that would be illegal!

Which more or less illustrates why the US gets so much bad press.
Because the average joe or congressman in the US doesn't cate 2 hoots that his/her government is doing this to other people.

As mentioned earlier with 10% of US'ians bearing passports the whole probelm seems to be one of recognition of the outside world.
My GF's grandmother sends her boxes of things like tissues and hamburger helper in Paris ? she truly beleives we don't have flush toilets or any of 1001 other everyday items. She has never left cincinnati except once to go to her daughters graduation (in NYC), decided she didn't like it and hasn't left for the last 30 years.

Zitat:

Makes you think about a country that will bring the full weight of the law against a US president for sexual misconduct and lying about it, but not against one for crossing the limits of legality and human rights time and again. And what about bringing the country to war against another under false pretenses.


Well one happened in Washington and the other is affecting people thousands of miles away ina country most had never heard of until the gulf war.
Zitat:

Zitat:
In much of the world the U.S. is regarded as a leading terrorist state.

(Again, many Americans don't seem to realize this.)


It rather boggles the mind but again terroism is something done by non-americans on americans whereas when the US bombs a country this is not.
Zitat:

If Sadam really had no weapons of mass destructions, he played really stupid games with the inspectors that would try to come to check on that.

If he was just bluffing and was really just planting roses and flowers it was a really stupid bluff.

Its easy to say that with 20/20 hindsight.
Equally if the US had known he had battlefield nukes they would never have attacked.
Zitat:

This is all about power, not humanitarianism. America thinks they have the right to rule the world.

This is the first half of the problem, the second half is that most Americans don't see alternative ways to live and be happy.
Whereby they think they are doing a favor they come across as forcing their own brand of democracy and capitalism on everyone else.

The main problem is the discrepancy between what Americans as a whole perceive in the outside world and the way the rest of the world perceives itself.

The whole question of who is in the nuclear club and not is pretty pointless while decided by those who are in the club! Another perspective is: Why are all Iraqi's not given the right to bear arms?

Erm .. because the majority would shoot Americans in Iraq?

This is something that the average USian just doesn't seem to understand.
Its a clear case of dual standards wherby the big brother tells little brother this is OK for me but not you.

How many USians would feel secure having foreign bases on US soil with nuclear weapons? Yet the US keeps bases all over Europe that noone wants "to protect us from the soviets"
How would the avergae USian feel about having military bases from Russia in Orgegon or France in Texas with a nuclear arsenal and SOFA rules that mean they do not answer to US law?

The main problem is one of conception by the mass USians that is extremely polarised. It is a simple matter of asking the question is it the rest of the world which are wrong to view the US foreign policy as aggressive or are the rest of the world wrong and only the US opinion matters?

Wheras most countires view themselves as part of a world of other countries the US views itself as apart from the rest of the world.

Mainly people conveniently forget why Cuba allowed Krushev to have nuclear sites in Cuba after being invaded by US backed freedom fighters ...
Cuba is viewed as some sort of rogue state where it is OK to fiddle in the internal politics, make threats etc. The US has constantly meddled int he politics of Mexico to the extend of overthrowing its legally elected Presidents and replacing them with one more aligned to the US boith directly via its opwn military and indirectly through funding and training insurgents.

How is a US base for training venezualan, irish, cuban (insert very long list) any different to Libya providing training to interests against the US? (and in most cases only in trade not a direct threat to the US)

the mainproblem is most Americans don't see the two as the same thing.
US sponsered terrorists are called freedom fighters ....
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 15:20 Uhr
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eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::
Piper: There's opinion, and there's fact.

You're welcome to your opinions. You want to think all Democrats are cowards, and publicly call them names, that's your problem.

But as far as your facts go, you're 99% full of shit. You might want to check into the reality of what you said. If you care about reality, that is.

And that's all I have to say to you about your post.


I have MORE reality than you do in every aspect that has to do with IRAQ

Unless you were there and can prove me wrong do so, and NOT by the lefts blogs or webpages, or by the media, but by people from other countries and from the IRAQ people themselves, I can give you some names to talk to or visit them in person at 6 different camps. I have a real lot of reality about it, A HELL OF ALOT MORE THAN YOU

But of course, you can't do that can you, you weren't there, were YOU, your just a armchair quarterback who THINKS he knows, which you are entitled to also, but I must say you are pretty blind, and it really don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out and would say that you too are 100% FULL OF SHIT

eco2geek, I admire your armchair quarterback opinion, but that is why you don't play with the PRO's, first, you werent there to witness ANYTHING, Kill anything, watch people die in your arms or watch lunchtime crowd get fragged, You weren't there PERIOD, and the biggest people that complain about the "scene" the most are people who have NO CLUE, because they weren't there.

Of course, that is your opinion and you are entitiled to it, I do wish you would STOP by in IRAQ and then tell me that I am 99% full of shit, Until you do, YOU have no right, unless you were there to SEE things for yourself, and believe me, you would see it all, even shit your pants your first hour there, that I am lying, I think your more intelligent than what you just posted, but I could be wrong, don't critize something you HAVE NO clue about.

I wasnt going to respond, just read others opinions, but for someone who hasn't been in IRAQ to tell someone who was is 99% full of shit, in my eyes is nothing, a wannabe expert on WDM hehe and why we are in IRAQ. I don't understand how people without ANY experince and was NOT there can tell someone with experience and was there that they are 99% full of shit, funny thing is most of our crew was Aussie and Brits. I would love to hear you say that they "Aussies" too are 99% full of shit. The Aussies I know and worked with, would 99% kill you on the spot just for being "dumb"

The good thing is CHOICE and OPINION, but please don't call me full of shit unless you were there and can back up what you say, I know I can, I don't believe a armchair quarterback can. I believe you are 100% full of it.

eco2geek, I still LOVE YOU buddy

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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 16:02 Uhr



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piper: your analysis seems to be missing one fact.
If the Iraqi's had WMD why didn't they use them?
Given the large numbers of Iraqi's willing to die to remove Americans and the coalition the vast armaments that you say are hidden why didn't a single Baathist republican guard use a single one.

Having spent a fair amount of time in Iraq in more peaceful times (and mostly travelling with the Republican guard as an 'escort') I find it hard to imagine not a single until firing a missile, rocket or shell with a WMD warhead if they were so readily available.

Zitat:
first, you werent there to witness ANYTHING, Kill anything, watch people die in your arms or watch lunchtime crowd get fragged, You weren't there PERIOD, and the biggest people that complain about the "scene" the most are people who have NO CLUE, because they weren't there.


Again this only opens more questions. We are told that most Iraqi's want the Americans yet a considerable number seem intent on killing them.
Its not possible to walk round a city like Bhagdad with an RPG or SAM and not be seen so many people most at least sympathise enough to not say anything.
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 16:27 Uhr
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Gowator hat folgendes geschrieben::
piper: your analysis seems to be missing one fact.
If the Iraqi's had WMD why didn't they use them?
Given the large numbers of Iraqi's willing to die to remove Americans and the coalition the vast armaments that you say are hidden why didn't a single Baathist republican guard use a single one.

Having spent a fair amount of time in Iraq in more peaceful times (and mostly travelling with the Republican guard as an 'escort') I find it hard to imagine not a single until firing a missile, rocket or shell with a WMD warhead if they were so readily available.

Zitat:
first, you werent there to witness ANYTHING, Kill anything, watch people die in your arms or watch lunchtime crowd get fragged, You weren't there PERIOD, and the biggest people that complain about the "scene" the most are people who have NO CLUE, because they weren't there.


Again this only opens more questions. We are told that most Iraqi's want the Americans yet a considerable number seem intent on killing them.
Its not possible to walk round a city like Bhagdad with an RPG or SAM and not be seen so many people most at least sympathise enough to not say anything.


I may ask, WHY would you use a WMD of that "type" in a WAR in your homeland ?????

"Its not possible to walk round a city like Bhagdad with an RPG or SAM and not be seen so many people most at least sympathise enough to not say anything"

Really, (I assume you are talking "green" or better known as international zone) can you please tell me more on "Ontime Charlie" which happens everyday at the same time (hence the name) and maybe tell me How many times a day.


"Again this only opens more questions. We are told that most Iraqi's want the Americans yet a considerable number seem intent on killing them".

Yeah, well, that usually does happen when a war goes on and the empire is forced out, I can't believe that question came up, I know around 4th grade social studies text book you can find the answer to that, and much more. I really don't think many people understand or try to understand what a war is. It certainly ain't all about oil, which actually makes me laugh outloud.

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michael7
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 19:18 Uhr



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While I find this thread disturbing (like watching good friends beat each other up), I feel compelled to make this point. I do not believe that the Bush Administration invaded Iraq because of oil, at least not directly. Here's an article written by E.J. Dionne of the Washington Post which sums up my opinion of their intent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01666.html

This theory of changing the political dynamic in the Middle East by creating a democracy in its midst comes from Dr. Bernard Lewis, noted author and professor. A number of Bush's policy wonks are a great admirers of Dr. Lewis.

Having ready access to the oil of a friendly democracy would have been a welcome consequence and of course, if there were no oil fields in the Middle East, it would have never happened anyway. Still, I don't think it's correct to view Bush's motives in a purely cynical fashion, although some is certainly warranted.

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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 23:33 Uhr



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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
WHY would you use a WMD of that "type" in a WAR in your homeland ?????

Ok a bit pedantic but why would I use it?
To escape, to create a diversion .....?
However the question is not so much why I would use it, I don't have any
and i would have moral qualms about using it anyway and I rather suppose you would too.
.
but why would Sadaam and the Baathist loyalists use it?

Same reason they used it in the past in their homeland.
Which is already demonstrated in many instances.

Which is the poiunt at which we go full circle again .... do we believe the republican guard all hated Saadam? etc. etc. I know for a fact that many did not and would die for the regime. Nor did significant numbers have any compunction of genocide of the marsh arabs or other dissident groups which is not to say they were all bad people but that enough of them had no problem massacring a viliage or using chemical weapons.

Zitat:

It certainly ain't all about oil, which actually makes me laugh outloud.

Oil is simply a currency. Whereby it might not be all about oil it is all about what oil buys which is power. Nearly 2000 yrs ago Giaus Julius Caesar invaded Gaul and then Britian while sending back proclamations about bringing civilisation to them when the currency was gold and he owed a lot to Crassus and Pompey in both gold and loyalty for support for his election as consul. 2000 yrs later Bush invades Iraq on the same pretext while bringing oil and commerce to those who backed him.

Crassus wanted the rights to the mint and Pompey the rights to his daughter. Both did well and both received excluisive contracts.

Cheyney amongst others (to numerous to mention) has also done quite well and received exclusive contracts .. though obviously his chairmanship of Halliburton is suspended.

Cheyney deals in oil field services, Crassus dealt in markets ...
 
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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 04:56 Uhr



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I just watched another Noam Chomsky documentary :
"On Just War Theory and the Invasion of Iraq" - video recording of a talk delivered at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, C-SPAN2 (April 20, 2006).

The 78 year old professor talked about the theory and was pretty light on them, but then at the question and answer session, he shocked them by saying (and I'm mostly quoting ... and sorry about any spelling mistakes etc):

Zitat:
Right now Saddam Hussein is on trail for human rights violations he committed in 1982 (ie he was behind the killing of 150 or so Shiites). But 1982 was also the year that Ronald Reagan dropped Iraq from the list of states supporting terrorism so that the US could start providing him with extensive aid - including military aid - including means to develop biological and chemical weapons and missiles and nuclear weapons, and Donald Rumsfeld shortly after went to Iraq to firm up the agreement with Saddam.

The Next charge against Saddam Hussein - the next one that's going to come along - it's been announced - it's a much more serious crime - the atrocities against the Kurds in 1987/1988 killing probably 100,000 people - the US didn't object - in fact the Reagan administration blocked efforts in congress even to protest against it. Furthermore, the the support for Saddam by the US increased and continued. In fact Saddam was given an extra-ordinary privilege - remarkable - he got away with attacking a US navel vessel killing 37 US soldiers/seamen in 1987.

In 1989 Iraqi nuclear engineers were invited to the United States to take part in a conference in Portland Oregon in which they were trained in how to develop weapons of mass destruction.
[...]
Yes the human rights violations were horrendous, but does that have anything to do with the invasion of Iraq? No, nothing.


Noam Chomsky says this is all in the literature if anyone wants to look these things up.

I think it's ironic that the US is charging Saddam for these things when the US was supporting Saddam at the time.
 
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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 05:04 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
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It's amazing how famous Noam Chomsky has become.

And lets say this is true. What would this change about us being in the war now?

Plenty of countries have gone to war against a country they build or supplied.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 06:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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Wohnort: Portland, OR, USA
michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
While I find this thread disturbing (like watching good friends beat each other up), I feel compelled to make this point. I do not believe that the Bush Administration invaded Iraq because of oil, at least not directly.

Sorry to make you uncomfortable. The tone of this argument is about like what goes on all the time in the blogosphere. Sometimes nastier, sometimes friendlier.

In any case, I agree with you. I think Bush's number one priority, that he couldn't but wanted to do the very day he stepped into the White House, was to get rid of Hussein. The 9/11 attack gave him the opportunity, even though he still had to cherry-pick the intelligence to "sell" it to the public. (Link: Intelligence, Policy,and the War in Iraq, Foreign Affairs magazine)

He was looking for an easy military victory (which he largely got) and a chance to say, "Look, I established a pro-US democracy in the Middle East." (Pro-US being the important part.) Bush won the war, but he's having a really hard time winning the peace -- in fact, he's fucked it up completely -- which is precisely the reason why the war in Iraq was a bad idea in the first place.

"Armchair quarterback" or "been there," doesn't matter: There is no debate over whether there were WMDs in Iraq. There weren't:

David Kay, first leader of the "Iraq Survey Group" (ISG), the group tasked with finding WMDs (Link):
Zitat:
I don't think they existed. What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the last (1991) Gulf War, and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the nineties.


The findings of the ISG itself (Link):
Zitat:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.


Statement from President Bush, 10/7/04 (Charles Duelfer took over the ISG after David Kay resigned) (Link):
Zitat:
The chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, has now issued a comprehensive report that confirms the earlier conclusion of David Kay that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there.


Here's a page full of links to articles and commentary about the search for WMDs.

The statement that "I was in Iraq, therefore I know there were WMDs; you weren't, so how would you know" is a fallacy. Probably more than one, in fact.
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 06:42 Uhr
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Why argue about whether Iraq had WMD's or not? Why is America allowed to have them but nobody else? How can they condemn somebody for having a small proportion of the same thing they have? I don't understand.

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bluewater
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 07:06 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 04. Apr 2006
Beiträge: 153
Wohnort: Melbourne, Australia
I could've sworn thar this Topic was about MS and the Fine the EU imposed..

Slash Dot for all this other stuff maybe a better Forum

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 07:18 Uhr
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The two are related Bluewater. They are both about world domination by the US. Both have the same agenda and that is forcing their way upon the world and the two work hand in glove.
However I don't want to say much more because it is causing too much friction between Kanotix comrades and it is starting to disturb me also.

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