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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 08:06 Uhr
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That's quite right slam. We all saw the size of the protests when Bush "won" the first election. We all know that the government is the problem and not all of the people that live there.
I know plenty of people Americans that dissaprove of the attitude that America has some sort of right to police the world. They also acknowledge that you can't rave on about morality while your poor are allowed to die in the street because they can't afford health insurance and you have the highest murder rate in the world..
You shouldn't take it personally.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 08:11 Uhr



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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
The sad thing is a lot of Americans have no since of "patitisom." The sad thing is that is now considered a dirty word in the States.

There's a mainstream conservative pundit named Andrew Sullivan. Less than a week after 9/11, he wrote a piece for the Sunday Times of London named "Why Did It Have To Be A Perfect Morning?" which contained this gem:

"The middle part of the country - the great red zone that voted for Bush - is clearly ready for war. The decadent Left in its enclaves on the coasts is not dead - and may well mount what amounts to a fifth column."

(Do you know what a "fifth column" is?)

In other words, to paraphrase Eric Alterman, many "patriotic" Americans could be trusted, but some, especially those "decadent Leftists," wanted to undermine the country from within. How very McCarthy-like.

This attitude was quite prevalent, especially in the period after 9/11 up to the so-called "end of hostilities" in Iraq. Anyone who dared to be critical of King Bush's policies ran the risk of being called a traitor.

So if some Americans are soured on the popular meaning of "patriotism," that just might be a small example of why.
 
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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 09:19 Uhr



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Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
Attacking M$ would be tantamount to attacking their own military, if you get my drift. With a well placed "update" they could cripple many many countries.

It's a conspiracy, is it now? Winken

h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
But make no mistake, the only interest the US government really had in MS was that campaign contribution.

Oh, I disagree.

Do you really think all the people profiting from Microsoft's success -- not only its employees and shareholders, but all the real estate agents, shop owners, car dealers, etc., in and around Seattle -- all of Microsoft's suppliers -- don't express themselves to their politicians?

Do you think the politicians in Washington State (including the ones they send to Washington, D.C.) want Microsoft to be less profitable?

No, and no.

The US government does in fact try to support the interests of American corporations, in general. Microsoft has the ear of the US government, to some extent, because they hire lobbyists and make large political contributions. But they also have government support simply because their success has made many, many people rich,

Which is why, for example, when the government of Peru made a push to ditch Microsoft products, the US Ambassador to Peru wrote a letter to the Peruvian congress, hoping to convince them to kill the legislation.
 
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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 09:28 Uhr



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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::


To pull all our jobs that we outsource to other nations back to the US (or tax those companies to the point where it would be more profitable to just stay here.)

To completely close our borders to imigrants with a statement that you proabably don't really want to be here and will just bitch when you get here like our own citizens do.

To become isolationist and tell the world that we are tired of being unappreciated and it will do just fine without us, our money, and our aid.

And if an indivdiual wants to donate to another country, fine, but no tax breaks for it. Most countries don't want our aid unless it is completely on their terms anyways.

Tarriffs should also increase making buying American more cost effect. The world doen't need our money anyways.


jackiebrown,

I do not wish to be rude but the world just doesn't work the way you think, America is in economic decline, It is reducing it's manufacturing base It outsources jobs because it make economic sense ( to the company) leaving some Americans without a job. it is also one of the smallest contributors to world aid, ( per capita) As for being isolationist with less than 10% of Americans having a passport it already is With tarrifs you do try it now and again but they never work as other counties retaliate and America now depends on imports. Finally Iraq what really was the point, the cynical may say Bush was after the oil, keep the arms manufactures going, lots of civil engingeering for the rebuild ( all the contracts have gone to American companies mostly owned by Bush's cronies) . You could believe the official line WMD , remember that, democratise Iraq, instead hundreds of thousands of people have needlessly died all caused by one man Bush, the man that didn't know the name of the Pakistan president and said the French didn't have a word for entrepreneur. If you elect an idiot as president then elect him again as a nation you should expect some criticism. It is nothing personal.


Ian
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 09:40 Uhr
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A conspiracy? Even if it isn't actually a conspiracy it would be naive to think the CIA don't have people on the inside at M$ wouldn't it? It is hard to imagine that they wouldn't place agents in such a powerful place don't you think? Any non-US government that uses M$ has rocks in their head.

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:19 Uhr



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Oh well, you're so right.
So, as Kanotix becomes more and more powerful and popular - should we fear the secret services joining our community? They might be already here - huh!
Greetings,
Chris

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:25 Uhr



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Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
Even if it isn't actually a conspiracy it would be naive to think the CIA don't have people on the inside at M$ wouldn't it? It is hard to imagine that they wouldn't place agents in such a powerful place don't you think? Any non-US government that uses M$ has rocks in their head.

That might make a good spy novel, but no, I highly doubt the CIA's infiltrated Microsoft.

(H'mm... Now that you mention it, Microsoft's already demonstrated it can "zap" computers through Microsoft Update with its WGA crap. Winken )

The reality of what's going on in the US is bad enough. Turns out the government's been monitoring telephone calls inside the US, even though it's not supposed to without getting a court's permission. And how did it go about doing that? It simply went to telcos like AT&T and asked, "Can we put secure rooms in your facilities and set up our equipment? Don't tell anyone." And the telcos said, "Sure."

All highly classified, of course, but that sort of thing has a habit of leaking out.

If the US government wanted to do something secret with Microsoft, in the name of "national security," all it would have to do is just ask.
 
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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:27 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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slam,

they are already here ...

Zitat:
dpkg -l *selinux*
...
||/ Name Version Beschreibung
+++-================================-================================-================================================================================
ii libselinux1 1.30-1 SELinux shared libraries


hubi

*and away*

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:40 Uhr
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Well the NSA have their hooks deep into AT&T don't they? It's not much of a stretch to think that their international spy agencies wouldn't be doing something similar.
I draw your attention to a post jebba made over at blag:
http://forums.blagblagblag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1787

Yes Slam, if you see somebody talking into their lapel give 'em the arse. Lachen
The difference in reality of course is the wonderful nature of open source where everything is out in the open.

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The real pirates by Courtney Love


Zuletzt bearbeitet von Cathbard am 14.07.2006, 11:34 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:54 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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Cathbard,

"they" are doing the same all over the place. Just goole for echelon, or recently was reveiled that "they" were surveilling the central swift-servers in Belgium, so "they" had an overview over more or less the worldwide money being transfered through that network for about five years.

hubi

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 11:02 Uhr
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It's scary stuff. An idiot politician over here let slip that Australia is involved in echelon with the US and the UK.
It makes sense geographically speaking. Australia is a major observatory when it comes to tracking space launches because of it's location too.
It makes me ashamed to be an Aussie. I'd like to see that little weasel John Howard at the end of a rope.

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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 12:08 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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Unfortunately the whole world politics are a bit scary at the moment. It's more or less as awkward as pre-1914-Europe, but on a world wide scale. The forthcoming G8-summit means business: energy supply, and politicians worldwide play tough guy again.

Well, I might be too pessimistic.

hubi

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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 16:33 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
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I was in a pissy mood yesterday.

One of the pluses about this forum is that while people may have their minds closed (or made up already) they do not bash someone with an alternate opinion.

I appricate you guys for not attcking me as an individual.

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Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.
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Zuletzt bearbeitet von jackiebrown am 22.07.2006, 20:14 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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piper
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 17:58 Uhr
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html


I know for sure the Democrats won't BE in office when Bush's term is up, remember where you heard this,
Genocide is not a good thing in this world, I love it when people blame oil hehe, I would love for those people to go to IRAQ and see what it's all about


Why is it that most our troops do 3-4 tours (volunteer) ? Because they believe in what were doing and also remember the days of Hitler, etc....from there parents,grandparents.

Democrats are panzies, wooses, losers, who believe that Genocide is cool and a pitiful excuse of oil for the war, Unless you where there or had a loved on KILLED by SAdam himself, I think the
democrats and the media spread nothing but fud with a capital F. what is more funny is John Kerry, A 4 MONTH VIETNAM VET HERO (hehe) who went to war with a camara crew to gain a politcal
edge and spread lies and backstab his own troops.

I hate politics, mostly because none of them have experience in anything in life but to lie & cheat and spread lies about others, others countries, what is good or bad.

I would still pick a republican over a democrat any day though, about a 1% less of lies
.
Another thing about WMD, If you were in IRAQ and witnessed this stuff for yourself and seen HOW it was used in the past (thousands killed) and actually was involed
in the bulldozing of buring dead people that were in fact killed by WMD (genocide) I belleve you have a reason to talk, for the nay sayers I just shake my head laughing saying clueless people scare the crap out of me, the scarest thing is that the MEDIA and the Democrats want to to agree with them. How many democrats (congress) have been in Iraq ? out of them, How many of them believe we are dong the right thing. Google is your friend, My only post on this, I really hate politics and seen first hand how it effects a country, peoples lives, and war, which by the way was not started by oil, you have to be pretty blind (democrat or media) to believe
that piss-poor - chicken-crap excuse. I have no political party and no religion, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what, why, when we went to Iraq. Democrats are very weak and can't do anything
by themselves, they need the media's help or anyones help to spread the lies and other BS about this war. As for the government spying on us (sorry every government does it), I shake my head again in disgust repeating "clueless people" this has been going on before most of you's or I were born, in fact 1939 to be exact, the telephone was NEVER private. Oh by the way, I do believe
in this war and THE REASONS for it. People die, but thousands died (genocide) before BUSH had the BALLS (no-one does) to do something about it, hence came the "panzy" excuse of OIL

OK Flame on Smilie thanks for listening to my vent Winken

PEACE

WMD FOUND IN IRAQ

The media is fond of reminding us that no Weapons of Mass Destruction were ever found in Iraq. This has been the clarion call of the Democrats for a couple of years now. However, did you know that WMD were found in Iraq? Not just a couple...but lots of them. A mother who lost her son in Iraq was interviewed on Fox News had this to say: "I have seen photos of entire fighter jets buried in the sand. I have seen pictures of entire caches of weapons that just my son's unit would uncover." I wonder why we never hear much about that one? Here's also a nice little list of what was found:

-500 tons...that's right...TONS...make that 1million pounds of yellow cake uranium. It was found at Saddam's nuclear weapons facility (yup...he had one of those too.)

-1.8 tons of partially enriched uranium found at the same place. You know, the stuff you need to make nukes.

-Hidden centrifuge parts and blueprints.

-Two dozen artillery shells loaded with Sarin and mustard gas.

Sounds like WMD to me!

The Demcrats were very quite on this because some of the DEMS and REP want the DEM to apologise to the world and to Mr.Bush for false accuations

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 19:31 Uhr
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How can American condemn other countries for having WMD's when they are sitting on the largest stockpiles of WMD's in the world?
Palestine has to have free elections but Yasser Arafat isn't allowed to run? Wasn't his death just a little too convenient? When they elect Hamas in a free election they are condemned for it?
Korea isn't allowed to have missiles but it's ok for America to have as many ICBM's as they want?
America used UN resolutions as the excuse to go into Iraq when the UN said not to go in?
Iran isn't allowed to have nuclear power but India is? And how many reactors does America have?
America invades Afghanistan to get bin Laden but they don't actually go past the poppy fields.
Poppy fields that supply over 90% of the Morphine grade opium that supplied the US until the Taliban decided to sell it to Russia and China instead?

This is all about power, not humanitarianism. America thinks they have the right to rule the world.
What gives the US the right to force their ideals down everybody's throat?
I don't want to live in a place that allows the poor to die in the street because they have no access to healthcare, where people murder each other with sickening frequency, where elections are blatantly rigged, where illiteracy is rampant, where people are spied upon in breach of their own constitution. It doesn't sound particularly ideal to me?

"When fascism comes to America it will be carrying a cross wrapped in a flag"
Are we there yet?

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 20:14 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Okt 2004
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Genocides have been usual in this particular corner of the world, as they unfortunately still are in many other regions of our planet. I had the terrible experience of travelling several of them.

I agree with piper that we have to stop people killing others - if necessary also by entering such countries with armed troups. But: I don't agree with the dumb way our administration explained the urgency to do so to America and the rest of the world. They did not talk about genozide, they talked about those weapons of mass destruction (which have been there always, which have been used already years before against minorities inside Iraq). They did not talk about the dictator killing people on a daily base - they told us we Americans could be killed by that regime (which was simply almost impossible at this time). So, they intended to do good (mostly), but communicated it very badly. The effect of this inability to communicate was a deep wound into the credibility and sympathy for the United States world-wide. Our president added to that personally by making himself the biggest fool of the world several times, and that way seriously damaged the reputation of our nation, and of every US citizen.

I did not like the way the US-press treated the Iraq problem, either. This opened doors for the European press to re-animate a stupid anti-Americanism. I'm busy fighting every day this trend in Europe wherever I get the opportunity to speak. But that's not easy, trust gets lost fast, but needs a lot of time to grow again.

US troops did a very good job in Haiti recently freeing a suffering population from a dangerous dictator and murder. It took months for the UN Security Council to recognize the problem and send additional powers. When they finally arrived, the most important part was done already - without much damage. But again our administration failed to communicate what happend: They could have used this glorious story to proof to the world (and sceptics inside the US) that they actually do the right thing. They failed. The story almost got lost entirely.

That's why I count the days this administration stays in power.

Greetings,
Chris

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michael7
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 20:16 Uhr



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I am one of the 51,003,926 people who voted for Al Gore in 2000 and one of the 59,028,111 people who voted John Kerry in 2004. I agree with very few things that the Bush Administration has done. (Please don't peg me as a yellow-dog Democrat, however, because I'm not. I voted for Ronald Reagan the second time and George H.W. Bush the first time.)

As a lawyer and former judge, I am fearful for the rights and liberties of all Americans. There are people within the right wing of the Republican Party who are simply scary and W has acted on their advice much too often. They have used the terrorist attack of 9/11 as justification for everything on their agenda and as a result, we find ourselves close to living in a police state. I was heartened and frankly surprised by the recent Supreme Court decision about the Gitmo detainees. If that decision had gone the other way, there are factions within the Republican Party who would have advocated rounding up their political opponents and locking them away in secret prisons.

For those of you who scoff, think about Jose Padilla, an American citizen who was arrested in Chicago and locked away in a military brig in South Carolina for years without any due process. The Bush Administration held him on a naked allegation that he was involved in a conspiracy to detonate a "dirty bomb". Padilla may be one of the worst human beings on the face of the planet, but that's not the point. They presented no proof to anyone and held him for years without charging him with any crime. And let me repeat, this is an American citizen arrested on American soil.

In this country, there are many fine people who are Republicans and there are many fine people who are Democrats. The policies of the Bush Administration, however, have deeply divided and polarized this nation.

Edit: And what all of this has to do with the title of the thread about the Microsoft fine, I have no idea.

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JimC
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 21:07 Uhr



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Politics and Technical Forums usually don't mix well -- -especially in forums with international memberships. It usually degrades into people taking sides, with a lot of "hard" feelings.

As a moderator on a Digital Camera Forum, I put a stop to any political discussions immediately, even if I agree with what is being posted.

But, I'll admit that a forum specific to Linux is different, as politics have such a big impact on what happens in the computer indsutry, that it's difficult to avoid getting into these kinds of dicussions, and they may even be useful.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 21:23 Uhr



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Piper: There's opinion, and there's fact.

You're welcome to your opinions. You want to think all Democrats are cowards, and publicly call them names, that's your problem.

But as far as your facts go, you're 99% full of shit. You might want to check into the reality of what you said. If you care about reality, that is.

And that's all I have to say to you about your post.
 
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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 21:33 Uhr



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Piper,

Firstly lets not take anything from the guys out in Iraq, and that is not only Americans, they have balls bigger than I will ever have but since you seem to disagree with just about most other people what is exactly the reason for the war in Iraq, WMD, what threat would Iraq be to America, the answer, zero. With spies and satallite information the true situation was known before the war. Bush misjudged the situation completely he thought he would finish off Saddam quickly finishing off what his dad started, unfortunatly he is nothing like the politician his dad was. The gassing of the Kurds in the North was years before, did anyone come to their help then or the marsh arabs, there is only one reason for the war, to secure access to the second largest known oil reserves.

Ian
 
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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 01:50 Uhr



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titan hat folgendes geschrieben::
Piper,

The gassing of the Kurds in the North was years before, did anyone come to their help then or the marsh arabs, there is only one reason for the war, to secure access to the second largest known oil reserves.

Ian


Then why is gas prices higher than ever (and I am not talking about the exons of the world but the cost per barrell.)

If oil is our real goal then we would do more drilling in our own country and lessen our reliance to foreign oil.

If Sadam really had no weapons of mass destructions, he played really stupid games with the inspectors that would try to come to check on that.

If he was just bluffing and was really just planting roses and flowers it was a really stupid bluff.

When we left Iraq the first time without finishing the job, everyone complained about how we just left the Iraqies out to dry. Now that were back, we have the democrats trying to do the same thing. (And guess who they will blame when Iraq collapses.)

Piper had 1 fact wrong, the differences in lies between the two parties is more than 1 percent. Just look a the democrat platform. It pretty much says nothing.

Listen to them talk - depending on the crowd they will say completely oppsoing things.

If the Bush was really an evil liar who knew for a fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction, don't you think he - our someone in his admistration - would have been ready to plant them to back up his statements.

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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 02:10 Uhr



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Zitat:
The U.S. is the only country condemned by the World Court for international terrorism-for "the unlawful use of force" for political ends.

-Noam Chomsky

(I wonder how many Americans know this? Or what is was for?)


Zitat:
In much of the world the U.S. is regarded as a leading terrorist state.

-Noam Chomsky

(Again, many Americans don't seem to realize this.)
 
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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 03:13 Uhr



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michael7 has this exactly right, 100%. Including the note on drifting far off topic. Unfortunately, we're in a race against time here, percentage point after percentage point is figuring out that something is very wrong with the picture here, but the last holdouts will be the least likely to actually take note of what's really going on. This thrills countries like China to no end, they are moving very fast to take advantage of the disastrous mistakes this country is making. Meanwhile another major corporation defaults on its pension plan. You'd think at some point everyone would scratch their heads and starts asking what's wrong? Not yet I guess.

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stryder
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 03:57 Uhr



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michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Edit: And what all of this has to do with the title of the thread about the Microsoft fine, I have no idea.

Well, to most of us Microsoft is the "evil empire". And from what I read here, the US (or should I say the present US regime) is also the evil empire in the eyes of many. Makes you think about a country that will bring the full weight of the law against a US president for sexual misconduct and lying about it, but not against one for crossing the limits of legality and human rights time and again. And what about bringing the country to war against another under false pretenses.

The objective of terrorists is to destablise the social fabric of society so that in the chaos that ensue their cause will be strengthened. That's why it doesn't matter who or what they target as long as the impact is felt. The best result is when the response further destablises the world. And this is what the US has done. And what Israel is now doing. I think this is why many are dead set against the war against Iraq. Is it for oil? Or is it for the need to respond against provocation. To do something. Anything.
 
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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 15.07.2006, 03:57 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
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Wohnort: Portland, OR, USA
If you're interested in reading about the issue of civil liberties being whittled away, check out Glenn Greenwald's blog (and book). He used to be a lawyer, and is both rational and persuasive.

Another thing to recommend is this excellent article, "Freedom, as in fighting for," by a guy who leads a European organization that advocates for privacy rights. Good stuff.
 
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