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titan
Titel: Microsoft fine announced  BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 11:16 Uhr



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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5171126.stm
 
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michael7
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 19:23 Uhr



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$357 million is less than 1% of the cash M$ has on hand. (I think I have my decimal points in the right places.) From a financial standpoint, it's a gnat on an elephant's ass. From a public relations standpoint, however, it's significant.

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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.07.2006, 20:18 Uhr



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michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
$357 million is less than 1% of the cash M$ has on hand. (I think I have my decimal points in the right places.) From a financial standpoint, it's a gnat on an elephant's ass. From a public relations standpoint, however, it's significant.


Well it is more than Bush and his cronies are doing to help consumers from being shafted, but I suppose you didn,t really elect him, depends who counts the votes, America, the world biggest democracy, that has to be a joke!!!

Ian
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 04:38 Uhr
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It is in the US's interest to keep M$ in control of as many pc's in the world as they can. Attacking M$ would be tantamount to attacking their own military, if you get my drift. With a well placed "update" they could cripple many many countries. It's no coincidence that M$ behave in the same way as the US govt. Winken

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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 05:12 Uhr



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How come so many conversations have to come down to basing the US?

When France Parliment passed the DRM law, instead of hearing about France we hear about the US and how it sux (or it leaders sux.)

When Microsoft loses a lawsuit we hear about how the US suxs.

When we talk about Germany and it's codec laws we have to hear about how the US sux.

As a US citizen, there is a lot of things that I do not agree with. But I am still proud to be here.

How many citizens from other countries agree with everything their country does?

The sad thing is a lot of Americans have no since of "patitisom." The sad thing is that is now considered a dirty word in the States. If you want to complain, you don't have to do it here.

I have never seen Kano or Slam say that Germany sux's because of the codex laws. They might not agree with the law but they certainly don't bash their country over it. When the Iraq deals with Germany came out, you did not see them on these forums complaining about German corruption. This isn't the place.

Now if the article was "US outlaws linux" or "US endorses MS" than these comments would make sense. But that is not what this article is about.

Come on guys. This gets old

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 05:27 Uhr
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I guess it has something to do with the fact that the US govt is an aggresive imperialist power that tries to force there ideals upon everybody. If Germany was bombing the bejeezus out of everybody that didn't want to play ball with them we'd be canning them too.
Nobody is having a go at every US citizen, that would be silly. It's their government's actions and the systems they use to "elect" those governments that get criticised. Nobody likes a bully, especially when the bully is a lying hypocritical muderer. You have to expect this reaction.
I have a go at the way our government behaves like a toadying lapdog too but that is of little interest to most of you so I don't mention it here. Following the US into Afghanistan and Iraq was shameful and I openly admit it. If anybody wanted to criticise the Australian government you would get my full support.

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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 06:31 Uhr



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cathbard, I have to disagree, the only thing the current US administration and Microsoft have in common is putting money before all other human concerns. Well, ok, they both lie a lot too. And they're both amazingly arrogant, and have a hard time getting major projects done on either schedule, or without totally messing them up. Now that I think of it, I guess they do have quite a bit in common.

The government was going to implement severe fines, possibly even a split of Microsoft, until MS decided to grow up and become one the big boys: they made the second largest campaign contribution to the current president, 2nd act more or less after taking power: the penalty phase of the antitrust trial was given to another judge, and then MS got off with a slap on the wrist. See what a few million dollars will get you if you put it in the right place?

Under Clinton MS was convicted, since Bush couldn't unconvict them, he had the judge he had appointed for the penalty phase of the hearings do the next best thing, get rid of any substantial penalty. If judge Jackson had stayed on he would probably have had Microsoft split into several companies, to break the monopolies for once and for all. Jackson loathed MS with a passion, he sat listening to them lie for years, it must have been a freak show to see all those lawyers parading in front of him telling lie after lie, much like they are doing right now to the european court... oh, we can't document our stuff, oh, it's not fair, we gave you what you asked for, wahh wah wah.. then appeal, postpone, get a little more market penetration as time goes by, they did it with Netscape too, by the end of that trial it was too late, netscape was dead as a viable company.

It's hard to discuss MS without talking politics any more, unfortunately. But make no mistake, the only interest the US government really had in MS was that campaign contribution. That saved MS billions of dollars, and possibly their company.

But if you think the USA is bad, China is worse in every single way, by many times. They just don't do as many openly stupid things so people don't talk about them as much. And the only reason Russia isn't doing worse things is that they are so messed up that they are limited in what they can mess with. I certainly wouldn't want to be in Indonesia either at this point in time, Nigeria or Sudan would totally suck, same with Somalia, only difference is that these countries are too weak to do more, but they each give it a pretty good shot. And is the North Sea still dead from all the toxins that Germany and Britain poured onto it? Can't remember, was for a while. And can anyone tell me if there is a single industrialized country out there that has actually lowered its CO2 emissions? That's lowered in an absolute sense, not slowed the rate of growth.
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 08:30 Uhr
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China are scumbags too, no argument there. As for similarities here's some more:

US Imperialism:

. Open trade with countries.
. Do deals that ultimately make the countries economically dependent.
. Invade those that will not cooperate.
. Crush the rest economically with sanctions and by stealing their trade deals with subsidies.
. Gather information against your enemies through espionage.
. Embrace and use the United Nations until it doesn't suit you.
. When those you have attacked retaliate with the only means available, call them evil and label them terrorists.
. Force the entire world to adopt US culture.
. Total global domination.

Microsoft:

. Build “Strategic Partnerships” with other companies.
. Tie them into Microsoft and make them dependent.
. Buy any company that tries to produce an alternative.
. Crush any companies you can't buy with marketing, litigation or by stealing their suppliers and clients.
. Include back-doors in all your products to gather information.
. Embrace standards and promote them until you can subvert them.
. When people retaliate with the only means available (ie virus's etc), call them evil and label them cyber-terrorists.
. Force the entire world to adopt the Microsoft way.
. Total global domination.

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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 08:51 Uhr



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[quote="h2"
And can anyone tell me if there is a single industrialized country out there that has actually lowered its CO2 emissions? That's lowered in an absolute sense, not slowed the rate of growth.[/quote]

According to a press release from the United Nations Environment Programme:

"The Kyoto Protocol is an agreement under which industrialized countries will reduce their collective emissions of greenhouse gases by 5.2% compared to the year 1990 (but note that, compared to the emissions levels that would be expected by 2010 without the Protocol, this target represents a 29% cut). The goal is to lower overall emissions of six greenhouse gases - carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, HFCs, and PFCs - calculated as an average over the five-year period of 2008-12. National targets range from 8% reductions for the European Union and some others to 7% for the US, 6% for Japan, 0% for Russia, and permitted increases of 8% for Australia and 10% for Iceland.

a total of 163 countries have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of emissions from Annex I countries) Notable exceptions include the United States and Australia.

So the reduction is absolute and most of the counties are close to their targets. Another good example of the American governments arrogance, they have refused to sign the Kyoto treaty and even refuse to except global warming is partly man made. The Bush administration has banned US govenment climate scientists from speaking publicly. My comments are aimed at the govenment not US citizens. My point is that the US is held up as the pinacle of democracy, the model for other countries to aspire to, how we all should be ruled, in reality they are morally corrupt and a great example of what happens when powerful business interests are put before the interests of the citizens that elected them. This corruption is in all govenments to some extent, here in the UK Lord Levi (also know as Lord cashpoint) a Blair advisor was arrested last night in a cash for knighthood saga. As for China I think if you asked any of the people now living in modern housing with most of the trappings of modern society due to their countries rapid growth how they feel about their government, I think the replies would be positive. Compare that with what the citizens of New Orleans think about their govenments actions and support before and after the flooding.

Ian
 
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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 09:14 Uhr



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Zitat:
I have never seen Kano or Slam say that Germany sux's because of the codex laws. They might not agree with the law but they certainly don't bash their country over it.

Ok, I need to clarify here: I am not German! Although my grandfather was German, and my father was born in Germany, too, I am Austrian citizen by birth and US citizen by commission (probably the only thing I have in common with the "Governator"). There are people and aereas in both countries I love, however, I don't care much for the countries themselfes. "Patriotism" is a dangerous feeling - everybody should examine his feelings carefully when it comes to that.
If we talk about countries or corporations doing good or bad, we hopefully do mean the responsible people, and not the countries/corporations - because they are just a common agreed illusion. A country or corporation can never think/decide/act, it's always people doing that.

Zitat:
When the Iraq deals with Germany came out, you did not see them on these forums complaining about German corruption. This isn't the place.

Politics and Economics have a massive impact on what we do here, so I would say "Anything Goes" ist the right place to talk about it. We try to protect this place as a free haven for free speech - as long as it does not lead to substantial problems for the Kanotix project. Of course we had the discussion about German involvement in Iraq, but unfortunately only in the German section of the forums.

The Kanotix community is a very educated, friendly, diverse and critical group of people from around the world. I very much enjoy & appreciate the intelligent and considerate style of discussions we have here besides the technical stuff, and I would really miss them if we had to stop them.

Greetings,
Chris

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.07.2006, 12:12 Uhr
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It's time for another Bob Dylan quote I think.

"They say patriotism is the final refuge,
to which the scoundrel clings.
Steal a little and they throw you in jail,
Steal a lot and they make you a king"

Nuff said.

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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 00:54 Uhr



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I am sorry. I wasn't saying that these threads you be locked or deleted. I just find it amazing the negaitive reaction the world - and some of the US - has towards my country.

I sometimes really wish that we would pull out of Iraq and tell them that they are on there own. To all the countries that have asked for our assisantce with money and food to pull out as well.

To pull all our jobs that we outsource to other nations back to the US (or tax those companies to the point where it would be more profitable to just stay here.)

To completely close our borders to imigrants with a statement that you proabably don't really want to be here and will just bitch when you get here like our own citizens do.

To become isolationist and tell the world that we are tired of being unappreciated and it will do just fine without us, our money, and our aid.

And if an indivdiual wants to donate to another country, fine, but no tax breaks for it. Most countries don't want our aid unless it is completely on their terms anyways.

Tarriffs should also increase making buying American more cost effect. The world doen't need our money anyways.

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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 05:46 Uhr



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Throughout history, every ruling nation has committed human rights atrocities, and the USA is no different.

Lately I've watched some very good documentaries ... two of which were:

Noam Chomsky: Distorted Morality (2003)
Noam Chomsky: Rebel Without a Pause (2003)

Noam Chomsky (an American political activist) says that Americans ask themselves "why does everyone hate us?", and he explains why they do ... *very* interesting.

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 06:44 Uhr
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Everbody should have a look at what Noam Chomsky has to say. He's a true visionary. My favourite quote of his is:
"It's been 50 years since anybody had a market economy, what we have is a marketed economy."
He's a champion.

Another quote that I think is relevant is what the Indian PM said to the Australian PM when asked why he didn't want the UN to step in and sort out their mess.
"Because it's our mess."

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 07:46 Uhr



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Zitat:
I just find it amazing the negaitive reaction the world - and some of the US - has towards my country.
Many people are just not happy with the current administration when complaining about the US, please don't misunderstand that, or - even worse - take it personal.
Zitat:
I sometimes really wish that we would pull out of Iraq and tell them that they are on there own. To all the countries that have asked for our assisantce with money and food to pull out as well.
The US has not been asked by anybody to invade, bomb and occupy Iraq. Why do you mix that with other countries asking for economic or humanitarian help? That's a dangerous mix.
Zitat:
To pull all our jobs that we outsource to other nations back to the US (or tax those companies to the point where it would be more profitable to just stay here.)
That is an interesting theory, but I don't think it would be possible. What is probably still less known to most of us: The world economy is ruled by international corporations, and not by the US administration. Most of these (some former US-based) corporations don't give a dime for the wishes of 1 single administration - even if it's a big country like the US. Please understand also that they usually do a very clever job in "tax optimization". You would hurt mostly small and mid-sized businesses in states like yours, as they really depend on outsourcing.
Zitat:
To completely close our borders to imigrants with a statement that you proabably don't really want to be here and will just bitch when you get here like our own citizens do.
Even the current adminstration understands very well that the "ring of fire" (which was helpfull to protect your wifes and children from beeing raped and killed by bandits in former centuries) around the US would today entirely destroy the our economy. Add, that it also would be a very expensive and technicially almost impossible action. In fact we desperately need those poeple coming - for many reasons. Also don't forget that the US is built on the shoulders of immigrants from all over the world and derived it's entire culture from them. When did your ancestors immigrate to the US?
Zitat:
To become isolationist and tell the world that we are tired of being unappreciated and it will do just fine without us, our money, and our aid.
Hm, just a few countries word-wide think they can stand such ideas. North Korea first comes to my mind as an example. And again, this would throw the US into the deepest economical and social crisis ever.
Zitat:
And if an indivdiual wants to donate to another country, fine, but no tax breaks for it. Most countries don't want our aid unless it is completely on their terms anyways.
Actually that's the case already - you don't get tax breaks for direct donations outside the US. About stopping to donate - well, that's a question of ethics, responsibility and education.
Zitat:
Tarriffs should also increase making buying American more cost effect. The world doen't need our money anyways.
What makes you think that increasing tarriffs would make buying "American products" (what's that in today's world, anyway) more cost efficient? But you're right - the world does not need the US$, if it disappears other currencies would easily jump in. However, personally I prefer to keep a strong and influent US$.

Greetings,
Chris

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 08:06 Uhr
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That's quite right slam. We all saw the size of the protests when Bush "won" the first election. We all know that the government is the problem and not all of the people that live there.
I know plenty of people Americans that dissaprove of the attitude that America has some sort of right to police the world. They also acknowledge that you can't rave on about morality while your poor are allowed to die in the street because they can't afford health insurance and you have the highest murder rate in the world..
You shouldn't take it personally.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 08:11 Uhr



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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
The sad thing is a lot of Americans have no since of "patitisom." The sad thing is that is now considered a dirty word in the States.

There's a mainstream conservative pundit named Andrew Sullivan. Less than a week after 9/11, he wrote a piece for the Sunday Times of London named "Why Did It Have To Be A Perfect Morning?" which contained this gem:

"The middle part of the country - the great red zone that voted for Bush - is clearly ready for war. The decadent Left in its enclaves on the coasts is not dead - and may well mount what amounts to a fifth column."

(Do you know what a "fifth column" is?)

In other words, to paraphrase Eric Alterman, many "patriotic" Americans could be trusted, but some, especially those "decadent Leftists," wanted to undermine the country from within. How very McCarthy-like.

This attitude was quite prevalent, especially in the period after 9/11 up to the so-called "end of hostilities" in Iraq. Anyone who dared to be critical of King Bush's policies ran the risk of being called a traitor.

So if some Americans are soured on the popular meaning of "patriotism," that just might be a small example of why.
 
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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 09:19 Uhr



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Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
Attacking M$ would be tantamount to attacking their own military, if you get my drift. With a well placed "update" they could cripple many many countries.

It's a conspiracy, is it now? Winken

h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
But make no mistake, the only interest the US government really had in MS was that campaign contribution.

Oh, I disagree.

Do you really think all the people profiting from Microsoft's success -- not only its employees and shareholders, but all the real estate agents, shop owners, car dealers, etc., in and around Seattle -- all of Microsoft's suppliers -- don't express themselves to their politicians?

Do you think the politicians in Washington State (including the ones they send to Washington, D.C.) want Microsoft to be less profitable?

No, and no.

The US government does in fact try to support the interests of American corporations, in general. Microsoft has the ear of the US government, to some extent, because they hire lobbyists and make large political contributions. But they also have government support simply because their success has made many, many people rich,

Which is why, for example, when the government of Peru made a push to ditch Microsoft products, the US Ambassador to Peru wrote a letter to the Peruvian congress, hoping to convince them to kill the legislation.
 
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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 09:28 Uhr



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jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::


To pull all our jobs that we outsource to other nations back to the US (or tax those companies to the point where it would be more profitable to just stay here.)

To completely close our borders to imigrants with a statement that you proabably don't really want to be here and will just bitch when you get here like our own citizens do.

To become isolationist and tell the world that we are tired of being unappreciated and it will do just fine without us, our money, and our aid.

And if an indivdiual wants to donate to another country, fine, but no tax breaks for it. Most countries don't want our aid unless it is completely on their terms anyways.

Tarriffs should also increase making buying American more cost effect. The world doen't need our money anyways.


jackiebrown,

I do not wish to be rude but the world just doesn't work the way you think, America is in economic decline, It is reducing it's manufacturing base It outsources jobs because it make economic sense ( to the company) leaving some Americans without a job. it is also one of the smallest contributors to world aid, ( per capita) As for being isolationist with less than 10% of Americans having a passport it already is With tarrifs you do try it now and again but they never work as other counties retaliate and America now depends on imports. Finally Iraq what really was the point, the cynical may say Bush was after the oil, keep the arms manufactures going, lots of civil engingeering for the rebuild ( all the contracts have gone to American companies mostly owned by Bush's cronies) . You could believe the official line WMD , remember that, democratise Iraq, instead hundreds of thousands of people have needlessly died all caused by one man Bush, the man that didn't know the name of the Pakistan president and said the French didn't have a word for entrepreneur. If you elect an idiot as president then elect him again as a nation you should expect some criticism. It is nothing personal.


Ian
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 09:40 Uhr
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A conspiracy? Even if it isn't actually a conspiracy it would be naive to think the CIA don't have people on the inside at M$ wouldn't it? It is hard to imagine that they wouldn't place agents in such a powerful place don't you think? Any non-US government that uses M$ has rocks in their head.

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slam
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:19 Uhr



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Oh well, you're so right.
So, as Kanotix becomes more and more powerful and popular - should we fear the secret services joining our community? They might be already here - huh!
Greetings,
Chris

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:25 Uhr



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Cathbard hat folgendes geschrieben::
Even if it isn't actually a conspiracy it would be naive to think the CIA don't have people on the inside at M$ wouldn't it? It is hard to imagine that they wouldn't place agents in such a powerful place don't you think? Any non-US government that uses M$ has rocks in their head.

That might make a good spy novel, but no, I highly doubt the CIA's infiltrated Microsoft.

(H'mm... Now that you mention it, Microsoft's already demonstrated it can "zap" computers through Microsoft Update with its WGA crap. Winken )

The reality of what's going on in the US is bad enough. Turns out the government's been monitoring telephone calls inside the US, even though it's not supposed to without getting a court's permission. And how did it go about doing that? It simply went to telcos like AT&T and asked, "Can we put secure rooms in your facilities and set up our equipment? Don't tell anyone." And the telcos said, "Sure."

All highly classified, of course, but that sort of thing has a habit of leaking out.

If the US government wanted to do something secret with Microsoft, in the name of "national security," all it would have to do is just ask.
 
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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:27 Uhr



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slam,

they are already here ...

Zitat:
dpkg -l *selinux*
...
||/ Name Version Beschreibung
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ii libselinux1 1.30-1 SELinux shared libraries


hubi

*and away*

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:40 Uhr
Artist
Artist


Anmeldung: 11. Aug 2005
Beiträge: 451
Wohnort: Australia
Well the NSA have their hooks deep into AT&T don't they? It's not much of a stretch to think that their international spy agencies wouldn't be doing something similar.
I draw your attention to a post jebba made over at blag:
http://forums.blagblagblag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1787

Yes Slam, if you see somebody talking into their lapel give 'em the arse. Lachen
The difference in reality of course is the wonderful nature of open source where everything is out in the open.

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The real pirates by Courtney Love


Zuletzt bearbeitet von Cathbard am 14.07.2006, 11:34 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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hubi
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 14.07.2006, 10:54 Uhr



Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
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Wohnort: Budapest
Cathbard,

"they" are doing the same all over the place. Just goole for echelon, or recently was reveiled that "they" were surveilling the central swift-servers in Belgium, so "they" had an overview over more or less the worldwide money being transfered through that network for about five years.

hubi

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