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michael7
Titel: Stallman meets with Royal  BeitragVerfasst am: 12.08.2006, 00:54 Uhr



Anmeldung: 24. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 354
Wohnort: Nashville
"Ségolène Royal met with Richard Stallman today as Stallman was making a stopover in Paris. Their meeting dealt with the importance of software in all of today's social, cultural and economic activities.

Free software has already deeply transformed the way we work, learn and live. The internet depends, essentially, on free software. Computer and internet users currently use free software on their computers (browsers, office packages, etc.) or, often unwittingly, access free software on the Internet.

Ségolène Royal and Richard Stallman agreed on the essential character of the four fundamental freedoms which are the foundations of free software: the freedom to run the program, for all uses; the freedom to study and to improve the program; the freedom to redistribute copies; the freedom to publish the improved versions. "

http://www.fsf.org/news/stallman-royal.html

Segolene Royal is a Socialist presidential hopeful in France. I would be interested in what our French posters think of her and her chances.

_________________
Debian Social Contract
 
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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.08.2006, 11:55 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
Beiträge: 275
Wohnort: Paris-France
Whoah... this is a massive topic, you can't just look at the copyright issues.

France is in an enormous termoil bubbling under the surface.

The fundamental issue beyond all other's is the evolution of France as a republic and how this is brought about and basically what makes France's national identity.

The two end points are those that want to live in the past and those that want France to become a carbon copy of the USA.

However the values of the French are completely different to the values of the USians. The idea of standard of living is completely different ....

For instance most French people would not be happy with less than 6 weeks paid vacation a year but would be happy to be paid less because of this. Its August in Paris and proably 70% of resto's are closed... the country is almost shutdown on standby. The thing is people realise this costs money, that it affects the GDP but they don't care because they don't measure their standard of living by the GDP but by time to spend on vacation, quality time with kids etc. etc.

This same thread goes through French culture, again viewed as more important in France than the US. There are 1001 things that are considered quinticentially French, people expect a very high level of public healthcare but of course complain over the cost... companies are seen more as employers than profit etc. etc. the list is almost endless.

For instance in France you cannot sell your copyright to someone else. A record company cannot copyright the artists work, the contract would be illegal and the same goes for programming. The programmer not the company owns the copyright. There are ways around this like confidentiality and non-competition clauses but the basic premise is you invent/write etc. its your intellectual property.

The problem is globalisation and how do adapt/evolve.
Outside people tend to think France is not capitalist, but it is merely a different kind of capitalism.

On one side you have the carbon copy of the US... brigade.
An everyday example is giving planning permission in protected areas to Starbucks or McDo's. The idea being if people don't want them they won't use them.

On the other side is what about the 4 family businesses which were put out of business by the Starbucks or McDonalds and also that peoples short term choice doesn't necassarily represent their long term wishes.

In other words people are naturally selfish, they want to try Starbucks and hey they are selling 50% cheaper than the mom n pop run places as a special introductory offer which will last as long as mom n pop stay in business.

People do not necassarily want efficiency in the food chain but quality ... but they do not take responsibility for thier personal actions, that is someone else can keep using mom n pops to keep it open but they will take advantage of the special offers thank you. The same can be said for portion sizes or quality...

The problem being how does France as a nation remain competitive. If a factory in SE Asia can turn out items cheaper by exploiting its workers how does France compete? If Starbucks by owning the whole process can make cheaper coffee and pay minimum wage should it be allowed to simply underprice and shut down 3-4 family businesses?

Its a long and hard process... least of all what happens to the employees of the closed but 'inefficient' businesses? The simple answer is they take a job at Starbucks but then this comes down to standard of living and how the French define it. The second question is what about decent coffee ... once mom n pop are shut down they are likely to stay that way... they are unlikely to be happy working over the counter in Starbucks anyway and when you include other similar type businesses we are talking about a lot of people and the overall effect is not so great .. will it really be noticable on the GDP??? Will the tiny blip be worth the misery of those loosing jobs?

The thing is of course its all interconnected. The whole French system from tax to employment is different to the US and UK...
In the UK most pubs (I think 90%+) are owned by 4 companies and this is only after an attempt at demonopolisation from the breweries which obvioiusly failed...

At the same time isn't it good to have choice...? but is it a valid choice when you decide over 1 of 4 starbucks all within 250'?
The thing is you can't compete financially with a company like McDo or Starbucks, even if they "played fair" and didn't deliberatly have a policy of shutting down competition. Then again who else is going to run a 24x7 takeaway food?

The copyright law is put forward by the carbon copy of the US supporters but it isn't isolated but part of a larger strategem.

My personal feeling is I like what make France French. I'm not a native, I choose to live here because I like free choice, because I like their definition of standard of living and that globalisation can be dealt with differently.

I'm happy to pay a tax on petrol (gas) and have the money spent on public transport ... but how does this affect French hauliers trying to compete with other countries with lower fuel prices? It seems a degree of protectionism is needed but how much?
 
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ockham23
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.08.2006, 13:01 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 2133

Michael,
this is slightly off topic, but don't expect any visions to come from continental Europe now. Faced with zero growth, fiscal crisis and unemployment, governments, whether they are socialist or conservative, are busy to just muddle through. Whatever little energy is left, they spend on positioning themselves for the next election by hyping up non-issues such as the avian flu or by telling outright lies about the future. Look at Germany, where conservatives and socialists formed a "grande coalition" whose sole purpose it is to keep a bunch of exhausted and corrupt politicians in power by ending all political competition. And those few politicians who seem to care about software and copyright issues are either being paid by the industry (and therefore of no help) or they simply try to take advantage of a rising anti American sentiment by bashing Microsoft.

I think the real "battleground" for free software will be in Asia. The governments of China and India must find a way to replace their current "piracy culture" with a legal and enforcement framework that strikes a fair balance between commercial interests and the needs of private users and the scientific community. Unfortunately, I don't know how this could be accomplished. What I do know is that Microsoft, Oracle, SAP and others have already established beachheads in these countries and that they're trying hard to impose a system that's tailored to their needs.

_________________
And I ain't got no worries 'cause I ain't in no hurry at all (Doobie Brothers, "Black Water").
 
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titan
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.08.2006, 14:34 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 526
Wohnort: Waliser Märze
[quote="ockham23"]Michael,
this is slightly off topic, but don't expect any visions to come from continental Europe now. Faced with zero growth, /quote]

Where do you get your information from ? there is only Italy with zero economic growth and the EU forecast for 2006 is 2.3%. I think France is more likely than any of the older EU counties to encourage and develop open source software. I believe their national Gendarmarie has moved over to Linux. Also as gowator pointed out they have a different view of life and are very much a republic in it's truest sense, for the people. It is a fine line between protecting copyright and yet allowing people to copy music they have bought to an ipod a tape or cd to listen to in different places. most people feel they have bought that music it now belongs to them, the record companies think diferent and have the ear of govenment. In the future there may be more artist release via the web, without drm and bypass the recording industry who seem to make a lot of money for doing very little. In the UK we had the first No 1 which did this, no record company no radio air time, just the net. As I have said here before China and India are big players and don't want to be restricted by propriatary software but I don't know how this will effect the established world software markets in the future. We already have plenty of software, it is closed source drivers and hardware that is as much a problem. The biggest driver for the future of free software is the corporate desktop until that happens it will be business as usual.

Ian
 
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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.08.2006, 16:27 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
Beiträge: 275
Wohnort: Paris-France
ockham23 hat folgendes geschrieben::
Michael,
this is slightly off topic, but don't expect any visions to come from continental Europe now. Faced with zero growth,

Again this is a US centric view where the economy needs to be fed by constant growth .... this is in many ways historical in nature because the strong US economy of the 1800's was supported by a whole load of new land to be expanded into. When this ran out they bought more and when that ran out they invaded Mexico.
There has always been room for inwards expansion... so that when a business becomes saturated in one area it can be moved into another.

Combined with the addition of new markets elsewhere this has led to one idea of a captialist system but a special case which is designed to function with constant growth. The US population density has allowed this model to continue such that when European powers gave up colonies the financial models had to change.

I call this the stuffed olive effect... if you can buy a jar of olives for $2 and a jar of stuffed olives for $2.50 you need someone who will stuff olives for a few cents an hour. This came to me whilst stuffing olives and wondering WHY? I can buy stuffed olives for a few cents more... yet to stuff a whole jar of olives (even pre-stoned ones) takes a long time! (and the stuff to fill them costs more than 50c)

The US model tends to revolve around having someone who will stuff olives for 50c an hour in latin America wheras the European model has been forced to change such that luxury items are redefined. It hasn't got to Olives quite yet but it has adjusted for many consumer items. For instance the price of bread can be 50c a loaf or ¤5 a loaf for a hand made organic flour one. Air conditioners are horrendously expensive compared to the US for instance ..

An example is chickens. Its almost rare to find non-free range chickens or eggs in France. I might have a choice of 5-6 different eggs in the supermarket but only one will be batterty farmed. When I buy beef I buy it according to the breed of cattle but even the cheapest is probably more expensive than the US. The thing is people eat far less meat and more vegetables and salads. Its an adjustment partly financial but partly healthwise and the fact most French people prefer a small steak for a certain breed of cow (opinions differ) to a large tasteless steak from a factory farmed cow. Italy is very much the same ...as is Spain...

In the UK most of the beef is actually from milk cows ... its tasteless and nasty not even accounting for BSE so its over cooked. (I'm born in the UK so I can say this) If I buy beef in France I buy from a butcher who will have a certificate for that cow attesting to its parentage and being free range.

What is spectacualrly different on IP in general is the US has absolutely no respect for what the latin countires designate as protected regions... a dry chardonnay is called a chablis ... you can buy cheddar cheese or parmsesan cheese made in the US which is obviously impossible. On the other hand the US view is if you call it costco cheddar or jack's cheddar then that is IP....

Its completely inverse... in Europe (esp Southern) the idea of parmesan made anywhere outside the DOP is ludicrous, its also illegal. The same is true for roquefort cheese or Iberian ham...

This might sound like nitpicking but it is actually the foundation of the economies. People are involved in labour intensive farming of high quality products to rigid standards. these standards are firstly legally defined but also consumer driven. If I buy Jambon de Bayonne I know it has ham from a small area from a certain breed of pigs and that the only other additive is salt from specific salinaries in Bayonne.

People are willing to pay more for the 'luxury item' and France, Spain and Italy both put quality food items high on their list of standard of living.. much higher than a SUV or high end car. It is a different economy ... if I want a proper mozerella it had better be made from buffalo milk raised in campagna ...

The US market as a whole doesn't care... cheese is pasturised and sold in plastic .. and even people with enough money rarely eat real cheese. The average USian doesn't worry that cheddar is a area of England and calling a home grown cheese cheddar is stupid... because they get good and bad cheddar and they look to the brand on the packet. Italy is by a long lead the worlds biggest wine producer but they don't export anything but the worst wines and worst years in any significant numbers. France on the other hand tries to run its wine business to balance the GDP.

The whole concept is different ... and this is just one way in which IP is viewed differently and software copyright is just one aspect.

Zero economic growth is not a disaster ... certainly not on the scale it would be in the UK because many of the items are not sold outside the country and high quality agricultural products provide employment and a way of life. Those agricultural product sold abroad are very much luxury items and less affected by exchange rates anyway. Wheras it hurts engineering exports etc. like airbus most French people don't care so long as they can buy quality food and have a roof over there head.

Ask them if they want to live off American type food for a year and buy an aircon and most will laugh, even if its 105+. Similarly ask them if they want a 50% pay raise for dropping to 10 days paid vacation and they will laugh in your face. Most people have lives outside of work ... this is a large part of thier standard of living.

You cannot buy back the time you missed when your son was growing up for instance. This is how they think....

Of course everyone wants more pay... who doesn't but the French are pretty rigid on what they are willing to do for more pay. The priorities for the average middle or lower class French family are quality of food, a roof over the head and time with the family and friends. (You can swap French for Italian or Spanish)

Very few would swap quality of food for a bigger appartment or air con or a SUV... these are things you buy from disposable income.



Zitat:
It is a fine line between protecting copyright and yet allowing people to copy music they have bought to an ipod a tape or cd to listen to in different places. most people feel they have bought that music it now belongs to them, the record companies think diferent and have the ear of govenment.

I think people do think that but the stance of government is more subtle, it is you bought the right to listen to that music where and when yoo want on whatever device you choose.
My point of view is similar... if you SELL a CD you sell that CD.... if you sell right to listen to the music on that CD then record companies should provide a replacement if it gets damaged (you didn't pay for the CD...) or a different physical format if you choose.
IMHO you can't have both...

I had a similar discussion in the cinema the other day with my GF.

I don't mind paying to see a film but I do mind being forced to watch 20 mins of advertising. I think the extreme was a Star Wars release where we had 45 minutes of advertising... by my reckoning they owe me about ¤200 for my time! A bit OT but I don't understand this either... after 45 mins I have developed a bad association with every product advertised... the whole cinema was audibly groaning after 20 mins and after 30 people started throwing cups... and who blames them?

What does this have to do with copyright? Well it hardly encourages me to pay my ¤5 and go and see the film at the cinema. If I rent the DVD I have to sit through a compulsary warning (unless of course I'm using linux) and probably a whole load of advertising... i honestly feel they are trying to force me to download it not because of price but because of the hassle any other way!
 
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ockham23
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 12.08.2006, 22:43 Uhr



Anmeldung: 25. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 2133

Zitat:
and the EU forecast for 2006 is 2.3%

I've been observing this for a number of years now, and actual growth rates tend to come in below expectations (with 2006 being the exception). We shall see in 2007 which way we're headed. German exporters recently reported a decline in new orders after several years of growth, and with consumption remaining at a low level, it's difficult to sustain this year's growth rate which is largely export driven. If you add to that the cooling effect of rising interest rates, high energy prices and a 3 percent VAT hike that will come into effect on January 1, 2007, at least Germany may be in danger of falling into a mild recession. Maybe they will repeal another public holiday, as they have done in the past. This would increase growth by 0.5 percent, but I wouldn't take it as a sign of economic strength.

_________________
And I ain't got no worries 'cause I ain't in no hurry at all (Doobie Brothers, "Black Water").
 
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Gowator
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 13.08.2006, 11:00 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2004
Beiträge: 275
Wohnort: Paris-France
ockham23: Its still irrelevant as far as who gets voted into the French presidency and this is what will set the tone of policy.
The recent "iPod law" has shown the direction the house will vote ...

Equally
Zitat:

The governments of China and India must find a way to replace their current "piracy culture"


No they don't need to, this is just one philosophy and one way forwards.

The Chinese government could pay for the development of "Chinux" well already has... but they could go further in implementing this but the Chinese government would have a credibility problem selling this to Western companies but not necassarily African or even latin American ones but equally MS has a huge credibiity and cultural problem selling to Indonesia, Malaysia or gulf countries. If you lived elsewhere then this is more obvious.

What is holding this up is simply a resolution of what happens in the near east. China has a huge energy shortfall and as such is liable to threats and blackmail but only if the US holds the energy cards.

The reason the US is such an important player in terms of being able to impose trade sanctions is exactly because of the type of economy it runs. When all is said and done its only 4-5% of the world population but its market potential far outweighs this because it is also the most wasteful .... largely because it represents 4-5% of people who gauge their standard of living by luxury and imported items, especially items that cost cents to make but sell for dollars.

Secondly economic strengh is really not all its dressed up to be. If this were the case then China and India wouldn't be such hot markets.

So back to the copyright issue... its really economy independant. If the economy is bad then the socialists are likely to get a better vote given the centre right will get the blame from being in power, regardless of world recession or not.

What it really boils down to is how far Sarkosy can swing and exploit fear and how much people will put up with. The CPE already demonstrated public opinion and Sarkosy has lost any large popular support he ever had and instead needs to swing the nationalist parties on issues like immigration, law and order etc..

If Sarkosy can convince people that the economy is an immigration issue first and formost he will get a lot of votes from people who actually vote. Just to put this in context many Jews voted for Le Pen in the previous first round presdential elections based on the fact he promised to deal with arabs first. I even know an Arab Jew who voted for Le Pen.

Employment is a bigger issue than exports for the average voter and this includes availability but also stability but to a far lesser extent salary.

Sarkosy will promise to get rid of immigrants taking French jobs and Royal will promise to put barriers in the way of non EU corporations taking jobs.
Sarkosy will promise more jobs from international companies and Royal will point out they will all be minimum wage and will wreck traditional jobs.

Somewhere at the bottom of the list is items like IP and copyright protection and this will be a consequence of general policy not an election issue.
 
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