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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 05:04 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 732
Wohnort: Texas
It's amazing how famous Noam Chomsky has become.

And lets say this is true. What would this change about us being in the war now?

Plenty of countries have gone to war against a country they build or supplied.

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eco2geek
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 06:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 02. Mai 2004
Beiträge: 471
Wohnort: Portland, OR, USA
michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
While I find this thread disturbing (like watching good friends beat each other up), I feel compelled to make this point. I do not believe that the Bush Administration invaded Iraq because of oil, at least not directly.

Sorry to make you uncomfortable. The tone of this argument is about like what goes on all the time in the blogosphere. Sometimes nastier, sometimes friendlier.

In any case, I agree with you. I think Bush's number one priority, that he couldn't but wanted to do the very day he stepped into the White House, was to get rid of Hussein. The 9/11 attack gave him the opportunity, even though he still had to cherry-pick the intelligence to "sell" it to the public. (Link: Intelligence, Policy,and the War in Iraq, Foreign Affairs magazine)

He was looking for an easy military victory (which he largely got) and a chance to say, "Look, I established a pro-US democracy in the Middle East." (Pro-US being the important part.) Bush won the war, but he's having a really hard time winning the peace -- in fact, he's fucked it up completely -- which is precisely the reason why the war in Iraq was a bad idea in the first place.

"Armchair quarterback" or "been there," doesn't matter: There is no debate over whether there were WMDs in Iraq. There weren't:

David Kay, first leader of the "Iraq Survey Group" (ISG), the group tasked with finding WMDs (Link):
Zitat:
I don't think they existed. What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the last (1991) Gulf War, and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the nineties.


The findings of the ISG itself (Link):
Zitat:
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.


Statement from President Bush, 10/7/04 (Charles Duelfer took over the ISG after David Kay resigned) (Link):
Zitat:
The chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, has now issued a comprehensive report that confirms the earlier conclusion of David Kay that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there.


Here's a page full of links to articles and commentary about the search for WMDs.

The statement that "I was in Iraq, therefore I know there were WMDs; you weren't, so how would you know" is a fallacy. Probably more than one, in fact.
 
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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 06:42 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 11. Aug 2005
Beiträge: 451
Wohnort: Australia
Why argue about whether Iraq had WMD's or not? Why is America allowed to have them but nobody else? How can they condemn somebody for having a small proportion of the same thing they have? I don't understand.

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bluewater
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 07:06 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 04. Apr 2006
Beiträge: 153
Wohnort: Melbourne, Australia
I could've sworn thar this Topic was about MS and the Fine the EU imposed..

Slash Dot for all this other stuff maybe a better Forum

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Cathbard
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 16.07.2006, 07:18 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 11. Aug 2005
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The two are related Bluewater. They are both about world domination by the US. Both have the same agenda and that is forcing their way upon the world and the two work hand in glove.
However I don't want to say much more because it is causing too much friction between Kanotix comrades and it is starting to disturb me also.

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jackiebrown
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 23.07.2006, 01:01 Uhr



Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 732
Wohnort: Texas
I am confused. After watching, reading and listening all week to various middle eastern ambassadors, embassy officials, scholars, etc--all seem to be clamoring for the US to come and broker some sort of peace between Israel and Hezbala. Lots of criticism for us not being there in the middle of this most recent but never ending hate scenario immediately--at the same time not wanting us to interfere and criticising every thing we do. I for one would prefer to stay out of it and let the middle east take care of its own problem. Iraq is what it is and we must stay but we really don't need to take on any more. It costs us lives, money, reputation and only buys us hatred and ridicule. I am tired of reading and hearing people say that they hate the US but not the "people" of the US--what a cop out! The people are what makes this country what it is.
PS. The US publicly asked the Europeans and the UN to manage the Darfur refugee and genocide problem over a year ago and it seems that they are still "taking care" of it with their never ending and mostly impotent "diplomacy" route. I am pretty sure that the hundreds of thousands of refugees pray daily for the "talking" to end and the help to start.

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monkymind
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 23.07.2006, 01:36 Uhr



Anmeldung: 21. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 123

jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
I am confused. After watching, reading and listening all week to various middle eastern ambassadors, embassy officials, scholars, etc--all seem to be clamoring for the US to come and broker some sort of peace between Israel and Hezbala. Lots of criticism for us not being there in the middle of this most recent but never ending hate scenario immediately--at the same time not wanting us to interfere and criticising every thing we do. I for one would prefer to stay out of it and let the middle east take care of its own problem.


Well ........ it looks like the US is not staying out of it or trying to find a peaceful solution. Instead:

U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis
WASHINGTON, July 21 — The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world ... r=homepage


Zuletzt bearbeitet von monkymind am 23.07.2006, 06:24 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
 
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h2
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 23.07.2006, 05:34 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005

The us play a major role in funding israel us assistance to israel.

So they have more influence, or should. I found a nice heavily pro israeli site so you wouldn't think that I was posting leftist propaganda or anything.

Knowing at least some of the facts isn't a bad idea. Reading what the other side has to say is also not a bad idea.

The administration here did not want that nyc story to come out by the way, that does not make them happy campers, but it's out, nothing they can do about it.

However, I think it's safe to say that this is way too far off topic of this thread, best to let this one die, there's lots of information out there on the web, anyone who wants to learn about this stuff can easily do so, so if they don't want to learn about it that's their own choice.
 
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bluewater
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 23.07.2006, 12:00 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 04. Apr 2006
Beiträge: 153
Wohnort: Melbourne, Australia
the topic is


Microsoft fine announced

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5171126.stm

all this geopolitical war discusion is for slashdot/blogs/letters to the editor/your member of parliament/your congress person/your senator/

In case any of you have forgotten this is "Kanotix Linux" not 'The Ministry of Geopolitical War - Discussion Forum- of the Year 2006"

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Kanotix EasterRC4 on a MMX 199Mhz lappy
and a Production Box, Desktop ICEWM::
 
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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 23.07.2006, 21:49 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 414
Wohnort: Auckland, New Zealand
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
Politics and Economics have a massive impact on what we do here, so I would say "Anything Goes" ist the right place to talk about it. We try to protect this place as a free haven for free speech - as long as it does not lead to substantial problems for the Kanotix project.

Exactly!
 
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