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Post subject: Censorship
 Posted: Apr 17, 2006 - 10:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 12, 2005
Posts: 442
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Hi I have just been involved in a discussion here:
http://kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-17379.html
and I have been disturbed to learn that in Germany some people believe that it is an offense to even mention the name of certain video playback applications. (Note I am not mentioning them here).
What I want to know is, what really is the law in this regard? As far as I am aware they are only problematical when used in conjunction with certain software codecs and libraries that seek to bypass copy protection - but providing they are not used with these there shouldn't be any real issues. I don't want some kind of speculative or panicked response - I would really prefer if people would look up the law and read what it says for themselves.
Moreover I have been threatened with account deletion purely on the basis that I objected to this, which by implication appears to me to be saying that even protest about these kinds of restrictions will not be tolerated?
Am I alone in finding this a highly disturbing turn of events, or are there any others out there who feel as passionately against censorship and the criminalisation of ordinary every day law abiding people as I do?
I think a lot of this is inspired by irrational terror and fear - and I feel strongly that once a government has planted that seed, ever increasingly severe measures become possible.
There seems to be almost universal disapproval (particularly from the German side) that I am naturally predisposed towards protesting against and resisting such restrictions. (Hey I have spent time in jail in the past for taking part in several 'democracy marches - so I'm not likely to change now and say that I'm not prepared to stand by what I believe in). But I don't see where exactly I am in the wrong?
My intention (well beyond hopefully getting some assistance with the issue I was having) was simply to register a protest and signal that I was not prepared to simply accept such restrictions quietly - which all things considered I don't think anyone should be prepared to do. Complicity is also considered a crime in several parts of the world - and there are certainly several instances in history where even though such restrictions 'were not the people's fault' the people were seen as being at least as equally guilty as anyone in their refusal and reluctance to speak out.
In any case I have registered my (loud and vocal) protest. I have not offended anyone in doing so and have not broken any laws and indeed I believe that doing so is still significant and important and is something that everyone should be prepared to do.
The thing you have to remember is that it is the politicians who serve the people - and is not the other way round. It is only when you start to forget that, that things can become really scary.
Governments only enact laws like this because the people allow them to. That is how it happens. It is down to you to not allow them and to take this power back - and shame on you (shame on you indeed) if you don't. Sometimes that means standing by what you believe in - and also accepting the consequences of doing so - even if this offends the authorities in question. It is a fallacy and a travesty of human justice to say that ordinary people are powerless. The people are the power - and governments and industry and big business only exist because we tolerate them and because we allow them to. Ordinary people can change things. You simply have to be willing and be prepared to try.
Look at the recent protests in France for example where the government enacted unjust legislation that made it easy to hire and fire young people without giving any justification. The people rose up in protest - and in a short time when the politicians realised their jobs might be at risk the legislation was scrapped.
So I make no apologies at all for standing by my beliefs, regardless of how difficult and awkward some people might find this to be. (Even if this means my account is deleted). (As I said, I have spent time in police cells for defending my beliefs - so having an account deleted on an internet forum seems trivial by comparison).
GJ |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 12:20 AM
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Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 336
Location: Portland, OR, USA
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raid517 wrote:
What I want to know is, what really is the law in this regard?
What you're talking about is German law, and in order to find out the specifics, you'd need to consult a German lawyer.
I'll go out on a limb and guess: 1) that none of the people who run this site are lawyers; 2) the restrictions they place on us are due to what they have observed happening to other groups in Germany that we aren't aware of, since we don't live there; 3) the only reason they care is that they don't have the money to pay fines, lawyers, and court costs.
We trust the Kanotix team to build a fine OS. We will also have to trust them to know what they are talking about when they tell us to go to IRC to discuss certain things.
Are they overreacting? I have no idea. I don't live in Germany.
raid517 wrote:
Sometimes that means standing by what you believe in - and also accepting the consequences of doing so - even if this offends the authorities in question.
The point is not that it "offends the authorities;" the point is that it could end up getting the Kanotix project shut down. I strongly agree with you in principle, but, just as is true in the US, as a practical matter, a small group of people is not going to get an odious law changed simply by disobeying it. Nor will they evade the consequences of their actions. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 12:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 04, 2005
Posts: 176
Location: UK
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Raid, tsk.. I've been down this road before.. forget about it and move on.... 
FWIW, I agree with your rationale on the 'shipped condition' of said package. Being UK myself, I also found the situation strange. By definition all reference to 'xine' should also be censored as this software is no less capable regarding this debate.
No doubt you have found a solution from somewhere.. Google is your friend (for now! lol).
In the meantime, firewall your pc, whisper in corridors and always remember to wear your aluminium foil hat! ( mine's double layered just to make sure)  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 01:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 46
Location: Frankfurt/Contrib
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In Germany, bypassing copy protection can be judged as a crime. In fact we have (and already had) a very lively discussion about the whole purpose in this country. Eventually, the minister of justice and the parliament decided to strengthen the media industry's position.
But I think all has not been said and done.
Now my guess is that the Kanotiy team is afraid that someone (a lawyer) might see a guide to bypass protected content in mentioning a certain program. Even if this is not true the case could be taken to court and implicate the end of Kanotix. Not because anything illegal happend, but the team cannot afford a trial. That's why they try to avoid it.
You are right ... defending freedom (of speech or whatever) should have highest priority, that's why at least some of us are using Linux.
But it's easy to remember someone on his duty to fight while sitting in the audience. Know what I mean?
If you stick to the claims and ideals you impose on others you're living a tough life. I hope you never weighted your personal convenience higher than moral courage. How many law suits did you fight so far (e.g. against you government or Microsoft).
Finally, in my opinion we have a powerful democracy, and you won't find many countries where a single citizen can easily compete against international companies and lobbies (with almost unlimited resources).
Of course, we all would like to see that (and there are efforts), and sometimes it becomes true, but face reality! Unfortunately, it's not that simple. |
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Host/Kernel/OS "mobile" running Linux Linux 2.6.16.5-kanotix-1 i686 [ KANOTIX 2005-04 ]
CPU Info Intel Pentium M clocked at [ 598.137 MHz ]
"Das soll ja auch performen."
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 02:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 12, 2005
Posts: 442
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Lol I don't ever sit idly by and say nothing when it comes to discussing issues of freedom and democracy. It isn't my style.
In any case i am fortunate to have some friends who work in the legal profession and although they are not German, their advice is that the German legislation pertains purely to DVD playback and other codecs that bypass proprietary copy protection schemes - and not the actual media players themselves. (Or indeed to mentioning their names).
So go figure.
As far as simply 'accepting the word' of those who have implied otherwise, again forgive me as I would rather not do that - as really I prefer to err on the side of truth, accuracy and of calm and rational reasoning.
As I said I will play along with our German friends objections in this regard - but I think it is unreasonable to expect me to do so without protest. That is not what I am about at all. I was raised in a culture where an ability and a willingness to challenge the decisions of authority was (and still is) the cultural norm. I tolerate my government in so far as it suits me - but I do not imagine for a second that I have no power to act against them, should the need for this ever arise. It is they who should fear us, not us who should fear them. And that I'm afraid IMHO is what living in a democracy means.
I dissent because it is my duty to dissent - and it is a right I have won through countless generations of protest and struggle. And I care more about that than any number of laws, or restrictions, or petty paid politicians who have opted to live in the pockets of the American imperial power that is the US film and TV industry. (Or any similar organisation).
Quote:
Finally, in my opinion we have a powerful democracy, and you won't find many countries where a single citizen can easily compete against international companies and lobbies (with almost unlimited resources).Of course, we all would like to see that (and there are efforts), and sometimes it becomes true, but face reality! Unfortunately, it's not that simple.
I'm afraid that to me is an alien perspective. To 'sit by and idly do nothing' just because you think you are too small and have no power to change anything? It is that kind of thinking that has led to catastrophe in the past. If you don't change things then who will? Do you think perhaps Superman will come along one day in his cape and underpants and that maybe he will save the day? It is your responsibility to change things and if you do not then you justly deserve every possible misfortune that you might encounter as a result of your inaction.
The real offense is not dissenting. That is the real shame here. I am simply doing what comes naturally to me.
Nonetheless I have said my piece - and if that is the way folks here want it then fair enough. But forgive me if I cannot empathise or sympathise at all. If you are concerned about this, then it is you who have allowed your politicians to do this to you. It is down to you too to tell them to change their minds. No one else will ever do it for you.
GJ |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 02:24 AM
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Developer
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: 10903
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| Topics with certain media players lead to questions where to get em and these respones are not allowed. As noone can delete only the not allowed answers the whole topic is usually deleted. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 02:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 12, 2005
Posts: 442
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Well Kano as I said it's your forum and here at least we play by your rules. But that to me is a 'baby and bath water' approach to this whole subject; a 'capitulation' if you will to the powers that so many people here claim they object to.
I have registered my protest and while I understand your motives somewhat, I find it very difficult to empathise or agree.
But nonetheless everyone must respond to their own individual conscience as they see fit.
Best regards,
GJ |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 07:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 1008
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Maybe one example of German legislation: The very well known German publishing company heise had a report about a commercial dvd copy program (anydvd) on its newsticker web page (heise online). Although there is freedom of free speech in Germany as well as press freedom, they were sued and found guilty for supporting illegal copy protection removal tools. The main point was not the report about the tool (although the suitor tried to prohibit even this), but the linking to the anydvd web site.
Anyway, this showed that legislation is well in favor of copy protection and the media industry and it would be very very well possible that some lawyer trying to make some easy money would find Kanotix to be a good target, if he finds directions on this forum how to install media players that bypass copy protection schemes (which most media players have the capability to).
And there is no use of discussing what the outcome of a court case would be, as there never would be any. Just a lawyer trying to sue Kanotix would immediately destroy the Kanotix project. That's why the Kano team goes to any lengths to ensure that this specific type of lawyer that specialises on finding and sueing sites does not find any reference for a potential case.
I don't like the censorship very much either, but we should just comply with it. Just think that the other way could very well mean you won't have any Kanotix OS any longer.
Cheers,
Michael |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 07:39 AM
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Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 158
Location: France
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Well, I'm sure we would all agree that it is usually easier to give any counsel on any given situation than it is to actually live under a given situation.
For exemple if you find yourself within shooting distance of you opponent, it means that you will ususally make more of an effort to dodge him than say, someone who is at a more comfortable distance. Now does that make you a wimp? I think not, it just means you are using plain common sense (it is pretty wise).
So, fighting unjust laws is one thing... but giving your opponent amunitions yourself so that he can shoot you & put you out of action is another (it is pretty foolish). |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 08:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 3315
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<OT, but funny:>
have you read about the illegal prime?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime_number wrote:
An illegal prime is a prime number which contains information forbidden by law to possess or distribute.
The first illegal prime to be announced, when interpreted a particular way, describes a computer program which bypasses copyright protection schemes on some DVDs.
<OT>
Oh, btw: it says it is illegal in the US as well. For a list of all the countries party of the World intellectual property organization copyright treaty, see http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ShowRes ... eaty_id=16 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 09:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 28
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Man, censorship sucks, I'm sure we all agree with this to some degree. My thoughts are that perhaps someone with some legal know how could sort out a piece of legalese that removed Kanotix from German legislation, a legal disclaimer or something, or register the Kanotix site etc in a country with saner laws. After all the internet is global not just German.
Freespeech and freedom to all, Kstevek. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 09:52 AM
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Webmaster
Joined: Oct 05, 2004
Posts: 1620
Location: w3
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Ok, folks. Moving operations of projects and businesses virtually or de-facto into better fitting legislations and tax-optimizing international corporate structures was and partly still is what I make my living of. While several people here love to talk law matters, they are my business - that's why I don't like very much to discuss them in my private time .
Of course it would be possible to create legal entities that protect all people involved in the project - actualy several open source projects faced the same problems and followed that path. But: Building a registered foundation is simple and cheap, setting it up properly and build all necessary surroundings to give real protection is definitely not.
If the Kanotix project ever decides to go into this direction, I would be happy to help and contribute my time and expertise. However, the person to decide this would be Kano. As far as I know him he would not even talk about something like that bevore he can see an ongoing stream of donations to finance such a project. So - are YOU willing to donate? Until today the donations coming in are not at all showing a sufficient trend, actually they are not even enough to cover just Kano's expenses for the project. Time to think, folks ...
Greetings,
Chris |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 10:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 28
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Kano, your work is so worthwhile, I will donate when I can, even if only small amounts. Donations link above left is very easy to use folks......just tried it
Cheers Kstevek
"dont let the B*stards get you down"  |
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Skip built box, AMD Athlon XP1700,Jetway mobo (no sensors), geforce2 mx400, 512m ram, wireless.
running Kanotix Easter edition, xorg7, kernel 2.6.17.6-slh-up-1, fluxbox
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 04, 2005
Posts: 176
Location: UK
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Hey Kano and friends, relocate to the UK and play from here 
I dont know if the legal situation is any better, but you can get away with most things here!
Just ask our army of illegal immigrants and benefit cheats |
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"Please sir, i'd like a Can of Ticks please"
"A CanofTicks sir?"
"Yes I need to feed them to my bugs"
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 18, 2006 - 01:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 12, 2005
Posts: 442
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Well you know me, I don't think we should 'just comply with it'. I'll play along - but it should be pretty clear by now that the only reason I am doing so is that kano has asked me to. I don't agree with the motivations or the reasoning behind the restrictions.
Nonetheless if Kano ever did decide he wanted to move the project 'off shore' to a new location and if he called for funds in order to facilitate this, I would certainly contribute. I am always willing to contribute to a good cause - and from my perspective, the cause of freedom and of anti-censorship is probably the best cause there is.
GJ |
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